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--- hvac:heating [2022/01/11 13:20]
princess_fluffypants [diesel heating]
+++ hvac:heating [2024/01/25 10:31] (current)
frater_secessus [Vented Heaters]
@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 Many RVers [[camping:snowbirding|snowbird]] to get away from temperature extremes, but others enjoy the cold or sometimes get caught in it.  The method one uses for staying warm will depend on whether or not one has "[[camping:hookup|hookups]]" (grid connection).
-TL;DR:  **heating an RV from batteries/solar is impractical**.((with the exception of [[hvac:heating#contact_heating|contact heating]]))  We generally use propane.
+TL;DR:  **heating an RV from batteries/solar is impractical**.((with the exception of [[hvac:heating#contact_heating|contact heating]]))  We generally use propane. Vented diesel heaters are increasingly popular given the very low cost and tolerable build quality of chinese knock-off models.
 > "Fear of propane will be expensive." -- Sternwake((https://vandwellerforum.com/thread-3260-post-55086.html#pid55086))
@@ Line 21: / Line 21: @@
 When [[electrical:shore_power|shore power]] is available electric space heating may be preferable for air quality reasons.
+----
+===== Heat Requirements =====
+[[https://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/threads/the-math-how-large-of-a-heater-is-required-to-keep-an-insulated-van-warm.93037/|Here's a good post about figuring out how powerful of a heater you need in your van.]]
+----
 ==== Vented Heaters ====
-These are heaters which burn a fuel to produce heat (either gasoline, diesel, or propane), however the exhaust products are vented outside of the van.  This gives the benefit of being able to generate a //lot// of heat for days and days at a time even in extremely cold climates, without needing to worry (much) about fumes or excess humidity.  The downsides are cost, installation complexity (it requires drilling some fairly large holes in the bottom of the van), and operational complexity (potentially needing to manage yet another fuel source).  However due to the incredible amounts of long-term safe heat they are able to put out, **this is the method of heating recommended for anyone spending extensive time in cold climates.**  They do require some electrical power to run the fan and thermostat/ignition system, so they are best suited to dwellers who have a dedicated house battery setup.
+These are heaters which burn a fuel to produce heat (either gasoline, diesel, or propane), however the exhaust products are vented outside of the van.  This gives the benefit of being able to generate a //lot// of heat for days and days at a time even in extremely cold climates, without needing to worry (much) about fumes or excess humidity.  The downsides are cost, installation complexity (it requires drilling some fairly large holes in the bottom of the van), and operational complexity (potentially needing to manage yet another fuel source).  However due to the incredible amounts of long-term safe heat they are able to put out, **this is the method of heating recommended for anyone spending extensive time in cold climates.** Ski bums, take note.
-==== propane heating ====
+They do require some electrical power to run the fan and thermostat/ignition system, so they are best suited to dwellers who have a dedicated house battery setup.
+FarOutRide has an [[https://faroutride.com/air-heater-installation/|excellent write-up]] on these heaters.
+=== Diesel ventilated heaters ===
+{{https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/716NFKtNpoL._AC_UL320_ML3_.jpg?170 }} Diesel fuel is energy dense and burns very hot, making it the ideal candidate for powering a ventilated heater.
+[[https://www.webasto-comfort.com/en-us/heating-solutions/recreational-vehicles/air-heaters/|Webasto]] is the major brand name in the market, however recently Chinese knock-off diesel heaters have come on the scene and results have generally been positive. They also cost like 1/10th what a Webasto does, so even if you replace it every year you're still well ahead of the game
+  * [[https://amzn.to/2YKbVWE|happybuy]] recommended by maddoggrimmyjimmy((https://www.reddit.com/r/VanLife/comments/e9ptvk/i_bought_myself_a_promaster_and_the_next_steps/fal28ap/))
+  * [[https://amzn.to/2t7wCjx|superfastracing]] recommended by likesweirdthings((https://www.reddit.com/r/VanLife/comments/e9ptvk/i_bought_myself_a_promaster_and_the_next_steps/famw6ja/))
+Check out [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvwmU_CcmGI&t=25s|this youtube channel]] for a //very// long and detailed breakdown of Chinese diesel heaters, how they work, and how to avoid some of the common pitfalls/failures.
+General advice is to keep a spare fuel pump, glow plug, and maybe controller on hand if you are relying on the heater for survival.
+See [[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLne7MoW21Rk01DYGGfOqIbYt6H1ZFSFks|this exhaustive playlist]] about diesel heaters.
+For those with [[electrical:12v:alternator|alternator charging setups]] babycakesman suggests:
+>> The diesel heater draws the most power during its startup cycle((heating the glow plug)), so it can be a good power saving move to start it up while the engine is still running when you park for the night.((https://www.reddit.com/r/VanLife/comments/19emcl2/solar_for_800/kjhbdck/))
+=== Gasoline Ventilated Heaters ===
+Gasoline burns less hot than diesel, so the fuel consumption for a given amount of heat is going to be higher.  Gasoline can also be more susceptible to [[https://faroutride.com/air-heater-installation/#elementor-toc__heading-anchor-7|coking/soot issues]] especially when run at the "Low" heat setting. However if you have a gasoline van already, being able to run the heater directly off of the vehicle's existing gas tank is a huge convenience factor.  Some vans (Such as the [[rv:ford_transit|Ford Transit]]) can be ordered with an auxiliary fuel tank connection specifically for situations like this. Just plan on having to [[https://faroutride.com/webasto-install-new-burner/|clean/replace the burner]] every year or so.
+The smaller gasoline heaters also have more problems with high altitude.  The manufactuer doesn't recommend running them above 4,900ft due to the extreme difficulties of sustaining combustion with small burners.  [[https://youtu.be/AkL8FE7N-CM?t=967|Here is an interview with the company where they get into the details of why]].  They recommend that if you do plan on spending a lot of time at high elevations, to upgrade to the larger 4kw heater, and to make sure to run it hard.
+=== Propane Ventilated Heaters ===
+Propane burns the least hot of the three fuels, but it also burns easiest and cleanest. Propane ventilated heaters do not suffer from the soot problems that gasoline and diesel heaters can, and they're usually far less fussy about altitude adjustments.  If you're into low/no maintenance and want to use a set-it-and-forget-it thermostat, this is the one for you.  [[https://www.propexheatsource.com/|Propex]] is the common go-to.
+Cost is the biggest downside; the heaters cost more than //ten times// what a cheap chinese diesel heater does.
+----
+==== Non-ventilated Propane Heaters ====
+Burning propane doesn't produce the poisonous exhaust that diesel and gasoline does, and therefor can //sort of// safely be run indoors without ventilating the exhaust products. There are a couple of things to remember about this method though:
+  * Burning propane **generates water vapor** which will increase the humidity in your vehicle. You may require additional ventilation or [[hvac:dehumidifier|dehumidification]].
+  * Burning propane **generates carbon dioxide.** Even clean-burning, low CO2 emission heaters **generate much more CO in low oxygen levels**.  This is the reason you are supposed to ventilate.
+  * Any forced air heater will require electrical power to run the fan.
-There are a couple of things to remember about heating with propane:
+There's a few different options for heating with non-vented propane.
-  * burning propane **generates water vapor** which will increase the humidity in your vehicle. You may require additional ventilation or [[hvac:dehumidifier|dehumidification]].
-  * even clean-burning, low CO emission heaters **generate much more CO in low oxygen levels**.  This is the reason you are supposed to ventilate.
-  * any forced air heater will require electrical power to run the fan.
-=== flame ===
+=== Flame ===
 [[http://amzn.to/2gRq7qB|{{ https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Fp5yqOMpL._AC_US160_.jpg}}]]
@@ Line 46: / Line 93: @@
 It is common to run a standard Buddy heater off the camper's large propane cylinder, perhaps teed off the stove line.  Unless [[http://amzn.to/2pUO0Cv|the line is regulated]] an [[http://amzn.to/2pnEXZS|inline "filter"]] (or more properly a "separator"((https://www.amazon.com/review/R2645P9QKIB0IG/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B000HE8P2O))) is required.  This keeps oils leached out by high pressure from entering the heater and clogging the orifice.
-=== catalytic ===
+=== Catalytic ===
-Catalytic heaters are called that because they catalyse (degrade with chemistry and temperature) fuel rather than burn it with flame.  Benefits include somewhat higher efficiency (using less fuel, creating less water vapor) and a softer, less direct heat less likely to catch things on fire.
+Catalytic heaters are called that because they catalyze (degrade with chemistry and temperature) fuel rather than burn it with flame.  Benefits include somewhat higher efficiency (using less fuel, creating less water vapor) and a softer, less direct heat less likely to catch things on fire.
@@ Line 61: / Line 108: @@
-==== candle ====
+==== Candles ====
 [[https://amzn.to/37agHAg|{{ https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91IkqAoxkzL._AC_UL320_ML3_.jpg?75}}]]Candles are an oft-discussed source of heat.  A candle will put out something like 240btu((70w equivalent)) of heat. They also give off light and can be used [[https://amzn.to/37agHAg|as a lantern]].
@@ Line 89: / Line 136: @@
-==== on shore power ====
+==== Electric Heating (while on shore power) ====
 When on unmetered [[electrical:shore_power|shore ("mains") power]] electric heating is a practical solution and will conserve propane.  The **efficiency of electric heaters is the same** (3.41 W / W or **3412BTU in a 1000W heater**)((http://rapidtables.com/convert/power/Watt_to_BTU.htm)) so your choice will be made on other features.
+=== Space Heaters ===
-=== space heaters ===
 [[http://amzn.to/2gDSTNE|{{https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/617OHfYSDVL._AC_US160_.jpg }}]]
@@ Line 106: / Line 151: @@
-=== resistance wire heaters ===
+=== Resistance wire heaters ===
 [[http://amzn.to/2g0xIBG|{{ https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ml6r3UacL._AC_US160_.jpg}}]]
 The simplest and cheapest space heaters are **resistance wire heaters** with a fan blowing over them.  The wire is like that found in a toaster or hair dryer.  The traditional design is a [[http://amzn.to/2g0xIBG|"milk house" utility heater]] that looks like it was first made in the 1940s.
@@ Line 116: / Line 161: @@
 [[http://amzn.to/2gWpm2n|Micathermic heaters]] encase the heating element in a mica matrix, yielding similar results as the ceramic heater but often requiring more frontal area cases.  Mica heaters can be made quite thin.((https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micathermic_heater))
-=== personal heaters ===
+=== Personal heaters ===
 Inexpensive, low-wattage((200w - 250w)) "personal" heaters have recently come to the market with prices as low as $10. Intended to be used at/under a work desk in an office, they deliver 675 - 850btu/hr.   'Dwellers with [[electrical:solar:nonessential|excess solar power]] or access to shore power could use these without affecting the bank.
-=== radiant heaters ===
+=== Radiant heaters ===
 [[http://amzn.to/2gE18t5|{{ https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51f8UBc7q9L._AC_US160_.jpg}}]]
 [[http://amzn.to/2gE18t5|These heaters]] are intended to **generate infrared heat** directly onto the target.  These are highly directional and could overheat some nearby materials.
-=== oil-filled heaters ===
+=== Oil-filled heaters ===
 [[http://amzn.to/2fXAe0e|{{https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41W99Eje5sL._AC_US160_.jpg }}]]
 These heaters are similar to residential radiators; they provide steady and silent heat, gently heating the space through convection.  These work best when the area is already warm and they can be left on for long stretches of time.  Due to low temperature these may be the safest space heaters.  You can also dry socks on them, which might end in tragedy with other kinds of heaters.  :-)
+----
+===== Contact heating =====
-===== contact heating =====
 Applying heat directly is much more efficient than heating the surrounding space((http://www.cheaprvliving.com/forums/Thread-Weather-Sleep?pid=245636#pid245636)) and may be powered by solar or battery power.  Examples of contact/direct heat include:
@@ Line 140: / Line 186: @@
   * heat packs
   * [[http://amzn.to/2g0Cr6d|12v electric blankets]]
   * electric mattress pads.
+  * USB handwarmers
 You can also DIY heated gear with [[http://carbonheater.us/|carbon heat strips]].
 Note:  a quirk of electric heating is that the heaters typically don't run at varying power levels for varying heat levels; they vary the ON/OFF duty cycle.  So maybe 100% duty cycle at 100w on HI (average 100w) and 10% duty cycle at 100w on LO -- on for one second and off for 9 seconds (average 10w).  For this reason you may not be able to run a 300w electric blanket on LO (30w average) from a 200w [[electrical:inverter|inverter]].
-===== comparison =====

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