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opinion:frater_secessus:beginner_mistakes [2022/08/21 20:03]
frater_secessus [Mismatched panels]
opinion:frater_secessus:beginner_mistakes [2024/03/26 19:01] (current)
frater_secessus [Failure to consider all loads]
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   * Have good DIY skills and fix-it/mechanical abilities   * Have good DIY skills and fix-it/mechanical abilities
   * Know basic cooking and are okay with simpler foods   * Know basic cooking and are okay with simpler foods
 +  * Are the "outdoorsy type"
   * Are instinctive "savers" (as opposed to spenders)   * Are instinctive "savers" (as opposed to spenders)
   * Are very organized and good at planning   * Are very organized and good at planning
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 People who are less likely to adapt to the life:    People who are less likely to adapt to the life:   
  
-  * the "high maintenance" +  * The "high maintenance" 
-  * social media addicts+  * People who cannot tolerate being physically uncomfortable for extended periods of time. 
 +  * chronic worriers 
 +  * Social media addicts
   * Those who don't like having to understand how things work   * Those who don't like having to understand how things work
-  * stoners, daydreamers, idiots, children +  * Stoners, daydreamers, idiots, children 
-  * those that need internet access 24/7 +  * Those that need internet access 24/7 
-  * the easily bored +  * The easily bored 
-  * people who need constant excitement, crowds, "action" +  * People who need constant excitement, crowds, "action" 
-  * picky eaters+  * Picky eaters (or the inverse, people who don't like eating the same thing many days in a row)
  
 Further reading:  [[https://cheaprvliving.com/do-you-have-what-it-takes-to-live-in-a-vehicle/|Do You Have What It Takes to Live in a Vehicle?]], in particular the section about it being 90% //self// and 10% //stuff//. Further reading:  [[https://cheaprvliving.com/do-you-have-what-it-takes-to-live-in-a-vehicle/|Do You Have What It Takes to Live in a Vehicle?]], in particular the section about it being 90% //self// and 10% //stuff//.
 +
 +==== Red Flags ====
 +
 +  * Worships Christopher McCandless and 'Into The Wild'
 +  * Wants to run away
 +  * Thinks that Vanlife will be "simple" or "carefree"
 ===== Planning ===== ===== Planning =====
  
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 //fit for your purpose// and //affordable on your budget//, not //fit for your purpose// and //affordable on your budget//, not
  
-  * the first van you see +  * The first van you see 
-  * what is depicted on social media +  * A "Fixer-Upper", or "Needs a little TLC" 
-  * what others tell you to buy +  * What is depicted on social media 
-  * the cheapest van you can find+  * What others tell you to buy 
 +  * The cheapest van you can find
   * etc    * etc 
  
 The seller must have a title in hand, and it must be in their name.  The van must receive a pre-sale inspection from an independent mechanic.  Breaking these rule typically results in heartbreak. The seller must have a title in hand, and it must be in their name.  The van must receive a pre-sale inspection from an independent mechanic.  Breaking these rule typically results in heartbreak.
  
-It is //highly advisable// to **not** buy a fixer-upper or "Needs a little TLC" van as your first van, unless you have extensive mechanical abilities/tools/aptitude/knowledge. Spend more to get a reliable van, and skimp on the interior build. You're going to have a lot better time inside a spartan build out on a reliable chassis that will go anywhere, than a fancy instagram-worthy build while broken down on the side of the road.+**DO NOT** buy a fixer-upper or "Needs a little TLC" van as your first van, unless you have extensive mechanical abilities/tools/aptitude/knowledge. Spend more to get a reliable van, and skimp on the interior build. You're going to have a lot better time inside a spartan build out on a reliable chassis that will go anywhere, than a fancy instagram-worthy build while broken down on the side of the road.
    
 ==== Failure to find vans ==== ==== Failure to find vans ====
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 ==== Failure to inspect the van ==== ==== Failure to inspect the van ====
  
-The answer to the "what do I look for with a used van?" FAQ is "a mechanic" A mechanic will do a **pre-sale inspection** for relatively cheap.  It can be $50-$150, or even free if they want to build a working relationship with you.  +The short answer to the "[[rv:assessment|what do I look for with a used van?]]" FAQ is "a mechanic" A mechanic will do a **pre-sale inspection** for relatively cheap.  It can be $50-$150, or even free if they want to build a working relationship with you.  
  
 The mechanic knows what to look for.  Finding things that need repair is not necessarily a deal-breaker;  it is evidence the price needs to be discounted so you can get it repaired.  Or the mechanic might find something horrible that saves you from a massive mistake.   The mechanic knows what to look for.  Finding things that need repair is not necessarily a deal-breaker;  it is evidence the price needs to be discounted so you can get it repaired.  Or the mechanic might find something horrible that saves you from a massive mistake.  
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 ==== Failure to consider all loads ==== ==== Failure to consider all loads ====
  
-Posts that include "my needs are simple, all I need are lights and a fan" develop, after questioning, into "Yeah, forgot the laptop.  And phone.  And tablet.  And toaster.  And coffee maker."+Posts that include "my needs are simple, all I need are lights and a fan" often develop, after questioning, into "Yeah, forgot the gaming laptop.  And phone.  And tablet.  And toaster.  And coffee maker."  It's like [[https://youtu.be/2ZTdqh-a0tU?t=120|the scene from that Steve Martin movie]] where all he needs is an ashtray, then collects more and more stuff as he walks away. 
 + 
 + 
 +Actual examples: 
 + 
 +  * "All I need is something to charge my phone, laptop, run my light and two small fans" (and an electric kettle) 
 +  * "I don't use any of my appliances for long" (except "my small hot plate for about 2-3 hours")  
 +  * "What are the **most basic features** that are required to travel/live in a van in the US? I'm thinking something like a bed, **an airfryer**, and some food/ gear storage."
  
 [[rv:build:cardboard|Living in a van mockup]], for example,  //forces// one to assess what one really needs. [[rv:build:cardboard|Living in a van mockup]], for example,  //forces// one to assess what one really needs.
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 There are dreams and fantasies, then there is **what will actually work on the road**.  The lights won't magically come back on in the middle of the night somewhere in Kansas just because you want them to.  There is no wishing a dead battery back to life when you need it.  Being honest with the math will help you avoid such issues.  There are dreams and fantasies, then there is **what will actually work on the road**.  The lights won't magically come back on in the middle of the night somewhere in Kansas just because you want them to.  There is no wishing a dead battery back to life when you need it.  Being honest with the math will help you avoid such issues. 
  
 +
 +==== failure to think realistically about charging ====
 +
 +//Using// power is the fun/easy part;  //making// power is the grind that will determine how often and how long you get to do the fun part, and how often and long you will sit in the dark with dead batteries. Think of how easy it is to spend money vs earn money.  
 +
 +Choosing [[electrical:12v:power_mix|a charging power mix]] for your particular situation. 
 +
 +
 +==== Underbuilding the power system ====
 +
 +Most people will lowball how [[electrical:12v:dailypowerrequirements|much power they will use]], and overestimate how much power they can make from solar or alternator.  Read on.  
  
 ==== Overbuilding the power system ==== ==== Overbuilding the power system ====
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   * [[http://rvwiki.mousetrap.net/doku.php?do=search&id=tweaking|tweaking the system]] for max power generation   * [[http://rvwiki.mousetrap.net/doku.php?do=search&id=tweaking|tweaking the system]] for max power generation
  
-----+==== Wanting to charging from EV charging stations ==== 
 + 
 +While most things are technically //possible//, recharging deep-cycle batteries from EV stations is impractical.  Our batteries are not set up to take the extreme charge rates, and they are at radically different voltages.   
 + 
 +Further reading: 
 + 
 +  * [[https://www.reddit.com/r/vandwellers/comments/u0pd8y/j1772_bev_plug_for_non_solar_users/|reddit thread]]
  
 ===== Solar ===== ===== Solar =====
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 ^ Time ^ Watts ^ ^ Time ^ Watts ^
 |6:02a |0w| |6:02a |0w|
-|7:02a |15.9w|+|7:02a |0w((panel voltage too low))|
 |8:02A |32.8w| |8:02A |32.8w|
 |9:02A |48.7w| |9:02A |48.7w|
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 |5:02p |48.9w| |5:02p |48.9w|
 |6:02p |33.1w| |6:02p |33.1w|
-|7:02p |16.2w|+|7:02p |0w((panel voltage too low))|
 |8:02p |0w| |8:02p |0w|
  
 +See the //not enough panel// section below. 
  
  
 +==== believing 100w of panel will make 100w all year ====
  
 +Solar harvest is greatly affected by the position of the sun in the sky (see above) and how many hours of that sun are available.  A crude generalization is that [[https://mouse.mousetrap.net/blog/2021-12-12-Summer-vs-Winter-solar-harvest-.html|winter harvest will be about half]] of summer harvest.  
  
 +==== believing 100w of panel will make 100w in all conditions ====
  
 +100w of panel makes 100w under lab (ie, perfect) conditions.  [[electrical:solar:output|Actual harvest]] will be much lower on average.
  
 +==== believing solar makes zero watts in rain, overcast, etc ====
  
 +Solar rarely makes //zero// watts. I find that at local solar noon at lower latitudes my flat-mounted panels make:
  
 +  * 5%-10% of rated power in **thunderstorms and dark overcast**
 +  * 20%-30% of rated power in **normal full overcast**
 +  * 33%-50% of rated power in **bright overcast**
 +  * 70%-90% of rated power under **full sun**
  
  
  
  
 +==== believing they will set out portable panels ====
  
 +Mounted panels make power whenever sunlight is available.  Portable panels make power only when they have been set out by their owners.  It is a common mistake to underestimate how much of a PITA portables can be and overestimate one's dedication to setting them out.
  
 +Be realistic:  if you are a person whose phone battery and gas tank is perpetually below 1/4 you probably won't set the panels out often enough or for long enough to derive much benefit.  This is not a moral judgement -- it just means you need to focus on mounted panel or increasing yield from the alternator. 
  
-See the //not enough panel// section below.  
  
 ==== shade ==== ==== shade ====
  
-[[electrical:solar:shading|Shade]] will wreck solar harvest.  Beginners often don't pay attention to shade conditions, including shade thrown by objects on the van roof itself.   +[[electrical:solar:shading|Shade]] will wreck solar harvest.  Beginners often don't pay attention to shade conditions, including shade thrown by objects on the van roof or the rack itself.   
-==== Worrying ====+ 
 +Unforced errors include mounting the panels  
 + 
 +  * on a rack that has ladder retention uprights 
 +  * on a rack that has raised sides 
 +  * on the bottom of a roof basket 
 +  * below a roof basket (!!!)  
 +  * near taller objects like vent hoods, antennas, cargo boxes, awning mounts, etc 
 + 
 + 
 +==== worrying about solar ====
  
 Yes, [[electrical:solar:status|your solar is probably working]]. Yes, [[electrical:solar:status|your solar is probably working]].
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 === Panels that won't fit === === Panels that won't fit ===
  
-Beginners sometimes buy panels before measuring the available roofspace.  Either the panels don't fit at all, or they don't fit the way intended.  Measure first, //then// buy panels to fit your particular game of "roof tetris".+Beginners sometimes buy [[electrical:solar:panels|panels]] before measuring the available roofspace.  Either the panels don't fit at all, or they don't fit the way intended.  Measure first, //then// buy panels to fit your particular game of "roof tetris".
  
 === Toy panels === === Toy panels ===
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 On the other end of the extreme, larger(200w+), [[electrical:solar:panels#panel_voltage|higher voltage]](20v, 24v, etc) panels are cheapest by the watt.  Medium sized((100w-175w)) 12v panels are in the middle, pricewise. 2019 prices for 100w 12v is around $1/watt.  On the other end of the extreme, larger(200w+), [[electrical:solar:panels#panel_voltage|higher voltage]](20v, 24v, etc) panels are cheapest by the watt.  Medium sized((100w-175w)) 12v panels are in the middle, pricewise. 2019 prices for 100w 12v is around $1/watt. 
  
-=== Flex panels ===+=== panel type ===
  
  
-After size, the most common mistakes are in **choosing the wrong panel type**.  First things first:  unless you are mounting them on a curved surface((boat, teardrop trailer)) or carrying them in your hands **almost no one needs a flexible panel**.  So don't pay 2x the price for a damage-prone panel.  If you must get a flexible panel because you think it's cool, at least get an amorphous/thin-film panel the way doG intended.  +After size, the most common mistakes are in **choosing the wrong [[electrical:solar:panels#types_of_panels|panel type]]**.   
 + 
 +First things first:  unless you are mounting them on a curved surface((boat, teardrop trailer)) or carrying them in your hands **almost no one needs a flexible panel**.  So don't pay 2x the price for a damage-prone panel.  If you must get a flexible panel because you think it's cool, at least get an amorphous/thin-film panel the way doG intended.  
  
  
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 Don't get me started on people **flat-mounting poly/mono flex panels to the roof of their van**.  Maximum cost, maximum power loss due to temp derating, //and// with the bonus of blasting re-radiated heat right through the van roof.  It's a crap trifecta.  Don't get me started on people **flat-mounting poly/mono flex panels to the roof of their van**.  Maximum cost, maximum power loss due to temp derating, //and// with the bonus of blasting re-radiated heat right through the van roof.  It's a crap trifecta. 
  
-=== mixing different panels === 
- 
-Mixing differently-rated panels will always be sub-optimal.  People  who know what they are doing can minimize the losses.  Beginners should either buy identical panels or run different types on separate controllers.  
  
 === Panel types and controllers === === Panel types and controllers ===
  
  
-It's also possible to combine the **wrong panel type for the controller**.  Mainly due to the voltage where they typically make max power((thus driving Imax at any given output rating)) , some panels are better a better fit for different controllers.+It's also possible to combine the **wrong panel type for the [[electrical:solar:charge_controller|controller]]**.  Mainly due to the voltage where they typically make max power((thus driving Imax at any given output rating)) , some panels are better a better fit for different controllers.
  
 **Poly pairs well with [[electrical:solar:charge_controller#pwm|PWM]] and [[electrical:solar:charge_controller#shunt|shunt]] controllers** at all livable temperatures.  This setup works best [[https://boondockplan.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/pwm-and-voltage/|when battery banks are more lightly cycled]] than when deeply cycled to 50%+ depth of discharge. Poly + PWM is the least expensive option.((Poly + shunt is even cheaper, but relatively uncommon)) **Poly pairs well with [[electrical:solar:charge_controller#pwm|PWM]] and [[electrical:solar:charge_controller#shunt|shunt]] controllers** at all livable temperatures.  This setup works best [[https://boondockplan.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/pwm-and-voltage/|when battery banks are more lightly cycled]] than when deeply cycled to 50%+ depth of discharge. Poly + PWM is the least expensive option.((Poly + shunt is even cheaper, but relatively uncommon))
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   * run different-spec panels on their own controller   * run different-spec panels on their own controller
  
-If you are committed to running mismatched panels on the same controller see [[https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=alt-e+mismatched|this series of videos by Alt-E]] on the subject.  In general, mismatched series max power on MPPT is +If you are committed to running mismatched panels on the same controller see [[https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=alt-e+mismatched|this series of videos by Alt-E]] on the subject.   
 + 
 +=== on MPPT controllers === 
 + 
 + 
 +The math for mismatched series max power on MPPT((https://diysolarforum.com/threads/adding-mis-matched-panels-in-series.35323/post-443068)) is  
     (Vmp panel 1 + Vmp panel 2) x lowest Imp of either panel     (Vmp panel 1 + Vmp panel 2) x lowest Imp of either panel
  
 In parallel,  In parallel, 
-    (Imp panel 1 + Imp panel 2) x lowest Vmp of either panel((https://diysolarforum.com/threads/adding-mis-matched-panels-in-series.35323/post-443068))+    (Imp panel 1 + Imp panel 2) x lowest Vmp of either panel 
 + 
 +=== on PWM controllers === 
 + 
 + 
 +Because PWM runs panels at ~Vbatt, the math mismatched series max power on PWM is  
 + 
 +    battery voltage x lowest Isc of either panel 
 + 
 +In parallel, mismatched voltages won't make much difference unless one is lower than bank voltage 
 + 
 +    (Isc panel 1 + Isc panel 2x battery voltage
  
  
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 Buying "more panel than you need" usually costs extra money directly (panel cost * quantity) and indirectly (may need a bigger controller).  Exception:  you may be able to get 400w of high voltage panels for the same price as 200w of 12v panels due to the former's superior watt/$ ratio. Buying "more panel than you need" usually costs extra money directly (panel cost * quantity) and indirectly (may need a bigger controller).  Exception:  you may be able to get 400w of high voltage panels for the same price as 200w of 12v panels due to the former's superior watt/$ ratio.
  
-Having said all that, you can have too much [[electrical:solar:panels#panel_voltage|panel voltage]]((or string voltage if in series)) for the controller's input.  Read specs on panels and controller before purchasing anything, and before [[electrical:solar:series_vs_parallel|running panels in series]].+Having said all that, you can have too much [[electrical:solar:panels#panel_voltage|panel voltage]]((or string voltage if in series)) for the controller's input and too much current for a PWM's input.  Read specs on panels and controller before purchasing anything, and before [[electrical:solar:series_vs_parallel|running panels in series]].
  
 ==== Relying on tilt ==== ==== Relying on tilt ====
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 ===== Batteries ===== ===== Batteries =====
  
-Dear lord, those poor batteries. New folks [[electrical:batterycide|kill batteries]] without even knowing it.  It's usually due to [[electrical:12v:psoc|chronic undercharging]] but people will claim they were ripped off, got old batteries, whatever soothes their soul at night. +Dear lord, those poor batteries. New folks [[electrical:batterycide|kill lead batteries]] without even knowing it.  It's usually due to [[electrical:12v:psoc|chronic undercharging]] but people will claim they were ripped off, got old batteries, whatever soothes their soul at night. 
  
  
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 **Onlookers:**  because you bought random stuff and threw it together **Onlookers:**  because you bought random stuff and threw it together
  
 +Read and understand specs //before// buying stuff.  This will save you grief and expense, and will save us from having to read your manual to you when the product fails to do what you wish/hope/imagine it will do.
  
  
 +Real world example:  
  
 +>> I bought a Ecoflow Delta to... to fire up a Chinese diesel heater... However, the heater draws too much juice from the 12v car port to run.
  
 +.
  
 +>> I recently got a portable kettle that’s collapsable, it’s perfect for being on the road, but my power bank can’t run it
 ===== Advice ===== ===== Advice =====
 Good advice can save time, money, and heartbreak. But getting good advice is not simple or even natural. We have to slow down and force ourselves to think about the issues, our questions, the existing body of knowledge, the answers we receive. Good advice can save time, money, and heartbreak. But getting good advice is not simple or even natural. We have to slow down and force ourselves to think about the issues, our questions, the existing body of knowledge, the answers we receive.
 The most important thing is no matter what advice you get or take, **it's your life and you have final responsibility for it**.  Your decisions are your own.  Make them wisely. The most important thing is no matter what advice you get or take, **it's your life and you have final responsibility for it**.  Your decisions are your own.  Make them wisely.
 +
 +==== making helpers guess ====
 +
 +If you are asking for help don't make the helpers guess what you are trying to accomplish, what gear you have, whether or not it has ever worked, etc.  People across the internet cannot see what's in front of you -- all we have to go on is what you tell us.  
 +
 +You may want to start a text document that lists all the installed gear and significant settings so 
 +
 +  - you have a clearer understanding; and
 +  - can paste it into a post when you need help
 +
 +
 +==== thrashing ====
 +
 +//Thrashing// is getting whipped into a frenzy of questions, non-comprehension, and failure to learn.  Thrashing often presents as presenting the same thread in many forums/subreddits, bailing on existing threads to make new ones similar or identical, etc.  It is like watching a drowning person nearly drown a lifeguard.  
 +
 +Slow down.  //Listen// to what people are telling you.  Think about what you want to accomplish.  Express your thoughts clearly.  
 +
 +
 +>>The best thing is to slow down and actually understand what's going on, then decide where you eventually want to take the system and move deliberately in that direction. It's not a “one weird trick” situation – gertzerlla((The best thing is to slow down and actually understand what's going on, then decide where you eventually want to take the system and move deliberately in that direction. It's not a “one weird trick” situation – gertzerlla76)))
 +
 +
 ==== wanting personal attention from an internet-famous person ==== ==== wanting personal attention from an internet-famous person ====
  
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 Q.  What is the best [fill in the blank?  \\ A.  Best for //what?// Q.  What is the best [fill in the blank?  \\ A.  Best for //what?//
  
-Q.  How much battery/solar do I need?  \\ A.  Only you and the math know the answer to that.+Q.  How much battery/solar do I need?  \\ A.  Only [[electrical:12v:dailypowerrequirements|you and the math]] know the answer to that.
  
 Q.  Is [fill in the blank] miles too many?  \\ A.  It depends.  Q.  Is [fill in the blank] miles too many?  \\ A.  It depends. 
Line 601: Line 700:
  
 ==== Failure to ask good questions ==== ==== Failure to ask good questions ====
-The first step in getting good advice is to **ask good questions**.  It's harder than it sounds, and it is a learnable skill.+The first step in getting good advice is to **ask good questions**.  It's harder than it sounds, but it is a learnable skill.
   * get a handle on what it is you [[https://xyproblem.info/|really want]]   * get a handle on what it is you [[https://xyproblem.info/|really want]]
   * [[opinion:frater_secessus:beginner_mistakes#research|do your homework]]:  read, browse, watch youtube videos, google, **use the ding-dang search function** of the forum, subreddit, etc.   * [[opinion:frater_secessus:beginner_mistakes#research|do your homework]]:  read, browse, watch youtube videos, google, **use the ding-dang search function** of the forum, subreddit, etc.
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 None of these preclude the advice from being correct, but do take these factors into consideration. None of these preclude the advice from being correct, but do take these factors into consideration.
 ==== Failure to take good advice ==== ==== Failure to take good advice ====
-There are folks who come up with foolish ideas then want others to give them support and encouragement.  They receive instruction on why it doesn't work, why it historically hasn't worked, and why OP is unlikely to make it work.  These interactions follow a pattern: 
  
-  - OP sets down the bong just long enough to post a harebrained idea with the unhelpful title of "will this work??????????"+There are folks who come up with foolish ideas then want others to give them support and encouragement.  They receive input on why it doesn't work, why it historically hasn't worked, and why OP is unlikely to make it work.  These interactions follow a pattern: 
 + 
 +  - OP sets down the bong just long enough to post a harebrained idea with the unhelpful title of "will this work??????????" or "HELP!" or "A question".
   - experienced 'dwellers point out the many errors in thinking   - experienced 'dwellers point out the many errors in thinking
   - OP gets mad -- they'll make it work and everyone will be sorry they ever doubted!   - OP gets mad -- they'll make it work and everyone will be sorry they ever doubted!
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   - OP retreats back to his hazy dreamworld and is never heard from again   - OP retreats back to his hazy dreamworld and is never heard from again
  
-This behavior is expected from 7th grade boys who have fantasies of building the best, fastest, most epic fast/furious streetracer with 100% premium components.  All without money, experience, or understanding of the issues It's less charming in adults and wastes everyone's time.+This behavior is expected from 7th grade boys who have fantasies of building the best, fastest, most epic fast/furious streetracer with 100% premium components.  All without money, experience, or understanding of how things work. It's less charming in adults and wastes everyone's time.
  
 If you want closure on the issue, [[https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/|set a reminder]] and check back on the thread later to see how OP Surely Delivered. It's sad/hilarious, depending on your view of humanity.  If you want closure on the issue, [[https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/|set a reminder]] and check back on the thread later to see how OP Surely Delivered. It's sad/hilarious, depending on your view of humanity. 
  
opinion/frater_secessus/beginner_mistakes.1661126632.txt.gz · Last modified: 2022/08/21 20:03 by frater_secessus